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Gate Raider

Patriot League - Ivy League Post Season Bowl Game

This sounds like great idea.  Get the PL out of the FCS playoff which has become too long.  Even with scholarships PL teams are huge underdogs to many of the big schools (N. Dakota St., Jacksonville St. etc.) in the FCS system.  Yankee Stadium, the PL or IVY champ stadium, or MetLife Stadium seem like a better choice for the game.  Easily accessible, lots of grads around, and an easy trip for students.

http://www.nhregister.com/sports/...ge-into-basketballs-march-madness
Gate63

Not a fan. I'd rather go to the playoffs and take my chances. PL can send the autobid to the playoffs and then send the 2nd place team to play the Ivy champ. Assuming, of course, that the 2nd place team does not get an at large spot.
Gate'83

I don't think we've invested the money and effort into becoming a scholarship program to walk it back to an Ivy bowl game.  Runs counter to our history as the small school that plays above our weight class, and also given this narrative makes us look like 2nd class citizens just hoping to get invited to the Ivy's party.  No thanks.

Besides, we're only listed in this article as a throwaway idea in the first place.  Why would the Ivy's want to play the PL in something like this?  They play us all year anyway, usually in front of small, disinterested crowds.  For this to be of interest to them I'm sure they'd prefer a D1 opponent who might actually attract some attention...
ed65

When the league was non scholarship, a championship with the Ivies would have been appropriate.  Now I think scholies will over time mean the League will get better and win some playoff games - see Gate this year.

To compete with the Big Boys in 1AA (FCS or whatever it is called) will be a tall order.  However, we are ok with being in the NCAA Hoops tournament without a prayer of winning so there certainly is a similarity.
The Lone Haranguer

PL will be too busy with FCS playoffs. Why can't the Ivy champ play the MEAC or SWAC champ? I'm sure the Harvard/North Carolina A&T or Dartmouth/Alcorn State will fire up Ivy alumni.
Gate Raider

We invested the money in scholarships because we essentially were the only FCS league without them and would have found it increasingly difficult to attract players and win games.  It was give scholarships or get humiliated.  (Wagner beat us in the playoffs a few years ago and Bryant had scholarships before 'gate.)  Without scholarships the PL would have been moving closer to D3 status.  The Ivy has the equivalent of scholarships and, in fact, can offer more of them for football that the PL schools can.  Exclude Colgate and the PL's record in football against the ivy league is not very good.  I suspect that alum from 1990 on and even some before that year would be more interested in playing an ivy school in a bowl game instead of a Sam Houston St. or James Madison in the FCS playoff.  The ivy league is realistic in realizing they have almost no chance of beating teams like Jacksonville St. or N. Dakota St.
Tunkmaster

First of all, the Patriot League would not be going D3 without scholarships. That's just a canard that's been around for a long time.

Yes, the Ivy League can offer more aid than other FCS teams. However, the teams they put on the field every Saturday cannot have more than the 63 equivalent scholarship aid. The players beyond the 63 number are placed on JV or freshman rosters and can't suit up and play on Saturday.

I'd be shocked if any Colgate football players ever wouldn't want to test themselves against the best in the post season.
Gate Raider

Not sure about that Tunk.  They can give all the players aid as long as the same amount of aid is offered to all students at the school.  Thus, it wouldn't be equivalent athletic aid just financial aid, again, as long as the same aid is available to all students.  So, every player could get the aid.  Maybe they can only suit up 63 at game time but, that leaves a hell of a  lot of depth in their chart from those freshmen or JV teams.
RichH

Tunkmaster wrote:
First of all, the Patriot League would not be going D3 without scholarships. That's just a canard that's been around for a long time.

Yes, the Ivy League can offer more aid than other FCS teams. However, the teams they put on the field every Saturday cannot have more than the 63 equivalent scholarship aid. The players beyond the 63 number are placed on JV or freshman rosters and can't suit up and play on Saturday.

I'd be shocked if any Colgate football players ever wouldn't want to test themselves against the best in the post season.

As far as I know while IL may impose that limit but the NCAA has no such rule for Ivies. Under NCAA interpretation,the service academies and Ivies are exempt from schollie limits. The ratio.ale,FWIW,is that since all students receive the exact same financial aid regardless of status as a recruited athlete,the aid is not considered a schollie.
Other than AI,only limit on Ivy recruiting is that a team cannot exceed a rollong avg of 130 recruits over a 4 yr period.
the last indian

An Ivy Bowl?  What would you call it, the Snooty Bowl, the Egghead Bowl, the White Collar Bowl, or just the Elite Game?  Not a good idea, IMO.
Gate Raider

Call it anything you like.  I would just like to kick their butt every year.  It could develop into a great rivalry.
HC87

I think this game is an inevitability imo...might be a few years.
The Future

PL teams can play as many as 64 games over four years. Ivies can play 40. (Colgate averages 12 games a year between 12 game seasons and playoffs.) If you take away a shot at national championship and make it so the PL only plays one more game a year than the Ivies you take away a huge recruiting advantage for PL teams. With the Ivies already allowed to have twice as many players on scholarship, the PL would be at a distinct disadvantage.

Bowl games are for teams that can't win national championships. No reason to take a shot at the title away from the PL--especially when the league is on an upswing.
60salum

Gate - Harvard every year in a bowl - or whatever - would be ideal.
Gate Raider

Devil's advocate here.  Let's face it.  At least on the east coast, there is little interest in the FCS playoffs except for fans of an individual team that is involved.  Realistically, Colgate averages 12, maybe 13 games a year and the Ivy 10.  Colgate winning games against the likes of N. Dakota, Jacksonville, S. Houston are very unlikely given the somewhat uneven playing field - redshirt, transfers, etc.  That was very clear this year and Dick Biddle said as much after 2003 (yeah, I know that was before scholarships).  My opinion is that interest in a PL/Ivy Bowl game would be far greater than the current FCS playoff system.  Many of the current students at PL schools were also applicants at Ivy schools and vice versa.  It is a natural rivalry and would have a huge following especially in the east.  Play it at a school site and get alum to come back for the game.   It could even increase interest in PL football and help recruiting.  Don't have the facts, but I suspect the Ivy sends more players to the NFL than the PL.
The Future

Not sure the takeaway from the playoffs should be that Colgate can't compete. Colgate played three road games and won two of them. The last game was moved up from a night game to a day game at the last minute. That in no way helped Colgate's prep.

If you look at the JMU game, Wingenroth made a huge catch on 4th down. Quazza made an incredible play on a ball for a TD. Greenawalt made a very good catch on TD. Ives made a big catch for a huge gain on third down. Ford broke up a TD to end the game. Melville had 94 of his rushing yards on two carries. Holland made one guy miss and went for 60 plus. JMU fumbled a kickoff and a punt. That's 10 plays from one game. Take away those ten plays and Colgate certainly could have lost by three scores. Colgate had none of those plays against SHSU. You could say SHSU was better than JMU (I think they were) but Colgate had opportunities and simply didn't make plays. They had been on a roll of different guys making big plays week after week so in some ways they were due an off week. Against SHSU, the team looked more tentative than they had since the beginning of the season. At halftime, Hunt talked about them needing to loosen up and have some fun and just play. I thought he was absolutely right. Seems like the respect they had for SHSU's speed almost slowed Colgate down and made them more indecisive than they had been during their run. Maybe SHSU played a great game. They certainly didn't the following week. If you look at just one game, your takeaway from the playoffs could just as easily be that SHSU can't compete at the top level of the FCS (which is obviously not true).

In terms of people in the northeast not caring about the playoffs, the UNH game was played on a construction site in bad weather with the dorms closed to students. It's not in the northeast, but JMU had a great crowd, with a ton of Colgate fans in attendance. (Should JMU be on the list of teams Colgate can't compete with if you look at their facilities and everything else?) And on a side note, I don't know why we think  attendance is the only way to measure interest. Colgate used to have more fans at games 40 years ago but did more people follow the team? How many more Colgate fans are watching games on their computers or on TV than they were 40 years ago? Probably quite a few.

As for Colgate's future at the FCS level, the team made it the final eight with 45 players on scholarship. The team has 20 starters returning next year. This was a young team going a long way. They may not make it as far next year, but a Colgate team that makes 10 big plays a game can win a national championship.

In terms of a PL/Ivy bowl game, it would certainly help the Ivies win more recruiting battles with the PL (the Ivies currently have 11 players in the NFL, the PL has 1 http://espn.go.com/blog/pac12/pos...sters-by-conferences-and-colleges). It would also mean one fewer PL team would play in the post season most years. Ending the season with that game wouldn't be the worst thing in the world but I don't think it would make Colgate football better.
RichH

Dont see the upside to a Ivy-PL bowl.
May have been a good idea back at the inception of the PL. Doubt H or Y would allow IL to do it given there utter paranoia anout any games after theirs. PL is striving to be nationally relevant not to return to Ivy Lite status.
Gate Raider

It could be argued that a PL/Ivy bowl game could return the PL, or perhaps more importantly, Colgate to national relevance.
Gate Raider

Look at the comments posted on this and other PL boards.  There is no interest in the FCS playoff unless your team happens to be in it.  I suspect almost no one on this board watched the championship game or even cared about it.  There would be more interest in a PL/Ivy bowl.
DFW HOYA

Gate Raider wrote:
Look at the comments posted on this and other PL boards.  There is no interest in the FCS playoff unless your team happens to be in it.  I suspect almost no one on this board watched the championship game or even cared about it.  There would be more interest in a PL/Ivy bowl.


Where, exactly, would there be interest, outside a declining subset of the Northeast?  

Part of the natural interest in bowls, if such interest exists anymore, is teams that don't play each other regularly: Notre Dame-Ohio State, Stanford-Iowa, etc. If Colgate is playing an Ivy school it already meets every year or has played 50-odd times, there's not going to be any additional interest. And how many Red Raider fans would travel to Florida to play Cornell or Dartmouth?

Any Ivy game is not being discussed with a PL opponent. The PL (excepting Georgetown) is going in a different direction which will be more closely aligned with CAA schools than Ivies in the future.
RichH

DFW HOYA wrote:
Gate Raider wrote:
Look at the comments posted on this and other PL boards.  There is no interest in the FCS playoff unless your team happens to be in it.  I suspect almost no one on this board watched the championship game or even cared about it.  There would be more interest in a PL/Ivy bowl.


Where, exactly, would there be interest, outside a declining subset of the Northeast?  

Part of the natural interest in bowls, if such interest exists anymore, is teams that don't play each other regularly: Notre Dame-Ohio State, Stanford-Iowa, etc. If Colgate is playing an Ivy school it already meets every year or has played 50-odd times, there's not going to be any additional interest. And how many Red Raider fans would travel to Florida to play Cornell or Dartmouth?

Any Ivy game is not being discussed with a PL opponent. The PL (excepting Georgetown) is going in a different direction which will be more closely aligned with CAA schools than Ivies in the future.

Exactly. Competitor of rather than aligned with may be more apt description.
BTW,
I like your suggestion to stop AI banding in PL. Might need to raise floor a bit but it will help all PL not just GU.  Banding serves little actual purpose other than as a remnant of our Ivy Lite status.
Gate'83

DFW HOYA wrote:

Where, exactly, would there be interest, outside a declining subset of the Northeast?  

Part of the natural interest in bowls, if such interest exists anymore, is teams that don't play each other regularly: Notre Dame-Ohio State, Stanford-Iowa, etc. If Colgate is playing an Ivy school it already meets every year or has played 50-odd times, there's not going to be any additional interest. And how many Red Raider fans would travel to Florida to play Cornell or Dartmouth?

Any Ivy game is not being discussed with a PL opponent. The PL (excepting Georgetown) is going in a different direction which will be more closely aligned with CAA schools than Ivies in the future.


I think the fair way to characterize this discussion is Gate Raider likes the Ivy/Patriot Bowl concept... not sure anyone else is really all that enthused.  I like the playoffs & much prefer taking a shot at the big boys vs. a meaningless exhibition, particularly (as you note) against teams we play all the time anyway.  Can't imagine there are any players out there who offered the choice between competing for a championship or playing an exhibition would choose the latter.  That we're discussing this now after a great run through UNH & JMU is particularly rich... imagine telling this year's team that next year rather than going to the playoffs they're playing for a chance at a postseason game against Dartmouth?  Sure that will pump up the team & the fans...
Gate Raider

Get rid of the AI?  Yeah, right.  Get rid of just about the only thing that makes Colgate and other PL schools distinct and different than, say, Bryant, Central CT and St. Francis.
RichH

Gate Raider wrote:
Get rid of the AI?  Yeah, right.  Get rid of just about the only thing that makes Colgate and other PL schools distinct and different than, say, Bryant, Central CT and St. Francis.


No,not proposing dumping AI,just banding, which sets limits for low to high academic recruits.  We have a floor set,under which no school can recruit. That should be sufficient to balance out the various academic admission standards. The "Forham" rule was,IMO, ill advised and unnecessary. DFW's point is that the removal of banding will help GU competitiveness in PL. I agree. The current rule targetted at FU's seeming advantage with lower admission standards obviously had no impact on their recruiting.
Gate Raider

I couldn't back eliminating the bands.  Just get tougher with FU and, while you're at it, American and Loyola.  Keeping the academic level at PL schools high is critical IMHO.  It makes the PL what it is.  It makes attending Colgate worthwhile.  Don't want to be another JMU or SHSU.  BTW when you read or hear comments from many recruits, they often point to the academics as being an important factor in picking Colgate.
RichH

Gate Raider wrote:
I couldn't back eliminating the bands.  Just get tougher with FU and, while you're at it, American and Loyola.  Keeping the academic level at PL schools high is critical IMHO.  It makes the PL what it is.  It makes attending Colgate worthwhile.  Don't want to be another JMU or SHSU.  BTW when you read or hear comments from many recruits, they often point to the academics as being an important factor in picking Colgate.

I agree on our academic standing and the need to maintain it. IMO,banding has nothing to do with academic integrity. Its purpose is to enforce athletic parity,at least in recruiting.. I have no issue with Fordham as a member. Loyola and BU do present serious issues for me. Hopeful that their academic profile will improve over time. The AI floor has impacted quite a bit on the academic profile of their recruited athletes.
All banding does is insure that coaches can recruit limited numbers of athletes in the lowest band. The logic being dumber equals better athletes. Perhaps so,but all recruited prospects must score above the AI floor. The floor is the guarantee of academic integritu not banding.
CR(colorlessraider)

Banding

I agree with RichH eliminate banding.  The AI floor is enough.
Gate Raider

I would prefer the football and other teams be true representations of the entire student body.  Don't like the dumb jock image at all.  It stigmatizes the entire athletic program.  Athletes already get enough of a break on admission.  Certainly don't want to sacrifice academic integrity any more than it is now.  There is more to life and college than athletics.
RichH

Gate Raider wrote:
I would prefer the football and other teams be true representations of the entire student body.  Don't like the dumb jock image at all.  It stigmatizes the entire athletic program.  Athletes already get enough of a break on admission.  Certainly don't want to sacrifice academic integrity any more than it is now.  There is more to life and college than athletics.

Dont see any sacrifice . All players have to be qualified to enter Gate,LU et al just like every other student. The advantage a recruit has over other applicants is not laxer academic requirements but rather each Admissions Dept has slots for recruits. True they are not competing with other applicants for spots in the entering class but they are qualified for admission.  Remember that each recruit class must all be above the AI floor and the overall AI of the group must fall within set parameters to that of the entire entering class.
Since Fordham's academic profile is somewhat less than other schools in PL,banding and the floor were imposed to prevent FU from having an overwhelming edge in recruiting.
The floor is higher than AI of recruits that could be admittd to FU but not to any other PL school.
The flip side of this issue is GU. They have the highest academic profile in PL. All of lowest band recruits are actually well above the floor. Banding however limits them from bringing in more than a few low band kids each year even tho most of those kids would not be low band recruits at other PL schools. Unintended perhaps but surely unfair to Hoyas.
Gate'83

Thanks Rich, very clear explanation on banding & I can see why it would be a problem for the Hoyas.  I like beating them up every year, but with scholarships in place I'd think we'd try to help them out a little... as I don't think anyone wants to see them leave the league.
Gate Raider

[quote="RichH:234"][quote="Gate Raider:232"]I would prefer the football and other teams be true representations of the entire student body.  Don't like the dumb jock image at all.  It stigmatizes the entire athletic program.  Athletes already get enough of a break on admission.  Certainly don't want to sacrifice academic integrity any more than it is now.  There is more to life and college than athletics.[/quote]
Dont see any sacrifice . All players have to be qualified to enter Gate,LU et al just like every other student. The advantage a recruit has over other applicants is not laxer academic requirements but rather each Admissions Dept has slots for recruits. True they are not competing with other applicants for spots in the entering class but they are qualified for admission.  Remember that each recruit class must all be above the AI floor and the overall AI of the group must fall within set parameters to that of the entire entering class.
Since Fordham's academic profile is somewhat less than other schools in PL,banding and the floor were imposed to prevent FU from having an overwhelming edge in recruiting.
The floor is higher than AI of recruits that could be admittd to FU but not to any other PL school.
The flip side of this issue is GU. They have the highest academic profile in PL. All of lowest band recruits are actually well above the floor. Banding however limits them from bringing in more than a few low band kids each year even tho most of those kids would not be low band recruits at other PL schools. Unintended perhaps but surely unfair to Hoyas.[/quote]Don't want to beat a dead horse but, there are many students that are not admitted who don't have a "slot" reserved for them, have academic qualifications that surpass those of some student/athletes that are admitted and don't get a scholarship.  That by itself isn't quite fair.  I'm okay with that, however, if you really want to be fair the admitted athletes should meet the same academic level of, at least, the students not admitted who had a higher academic level.  Thankfully, the PL is not the SEC.
RichH

Pretty safe to say the horse is dead Smile.
I truly like our PL. To me it is the best approach to melding athletic and academic values. Our athletes are college students who play sports. They are not just players attending just to get a uniform. Nor are we an Ivy clone indulging in all their inherent hypocrisy particularly in football and wrestling.
Gate Raider

I agree.

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